Kamil M. pisze:fantomik pisze:Śmieszne jest to, że pomijasz Łaskawe Zapłacenie Długu przez owego przyjaciela, a uczynił to z Łaski, bo przecież nie musiał.
Tylko, że Bóg nie płaci naszego długu u kogoś innego, bo zaciągnęliśmy go właśnie u Niego. On go umarza (jak w przypowieści).
Tylko, że musiałby samemu dla siebie stać się obrzydliwością (zgodnie z tym co zacytowałem wcześniej). A wiesz, w praktyce każdy z nas rozumie, że Bóg uwielbia siebie, raduje się sobą i działa z powodu siebie, a nie nas. Tego nie "przeskoczysz", ceną jest tutaj Boży Charakter Bracie i Bóg, który nie jest wierny samemu sobie.
Niemniej polecam, książka zajmuje się nie tylko "Ojcami". I jeszcze może jako taki dodatek:
http://theresurgence.com/2010/06/28/why ... ns-crucial (szczególnie paragraf "SUBSTITUTION AND CHRISTUS VICTOR", który dobrze ukazuje, że nie powinno się jednego charakteru ofiary Chrystusa stawiać jako przeciwność innego)
edit: przeczytałem tego pdf-a, którego podlinkowałeś ale za mało autor daje kontekstu do cytatów, na które się powołuje i niestety ewidentnie bez dowodu przyjmuje założenie, że tylko jeden charakter ofiary Chrystusa występuje u "Ojców" (Autorzy "PfOT" dali dużo więcej kontekstu).
A teraz tak na szybko i kolejno jak w PDF-ie Derka występują tylko w szerszym kontekście:
Justin Martyr pisze:“For the whole human race will be found to be under a curse. For it is written in the law of Moses, ‘Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things that are written in the book of the law to do them.’ And no one has accurately done all, nor will you venture to deny this; but some more and some less than others have observed the ordinances enjoined. But if those who are under this law appear to be under a curse for not having observed all the requirements, how much more shall all the nations appear to be under a curse who practice idolatry, who seduce youths, and commit other crimes? If, then, the Father of all wished His Christ for the whole human family to take upon Him the curses of all, knowing that, after He had been crucified and was dead, He would raise Him up, why do you argue about Him, who submitted to suffer these things according to the Father’s will, as if He were accursed, and do not rather bewail yourselves? For although His Father caused Him to suffer these things in behalf of the human family, yet you did not commit the deed as in obedience to the will of God. For you did not practice piety when you slew the prophets. And let none of you say: If His Father wished Him to suffer this, in order that by His stripes the human race might be healed, we have done no wrong. If, indeed, you repent of your sins, and recognize Him to be Christ, and observe His commandments, then you may assert this; for, as I have said before, remission of sins shall be yours. But if you curse Him and them that believe on Him, and, when you have the power, put them to death, how is it possible that requisition shall not be made of you, as of unrighteous and sinful men, altogether hard-hearted and without understanding, because you laid your hands on Him? ANF: Vol. I, Dialogue of Justin, Chapter 95.
Eusebius of Caesarea pisze:And in that He made our sins His own from His love and benevolence towards us, He says these words, adding further on in the same Psalm: “Thou hast protected me because of my innocence,” clearly shewing the impeccability of the Lamb of God. And how can He make our sins His own, and be said to bear our iniquities, except by our being regarded as His body, according to the apostle, who says: “Now ye are the body of Christ and severally members?” And by the rule that “if one member suffer all the members suffer and sin, He too by the laws of sympathy (since the Word of God was pleased to take the form of a slave and to be knit into the common tabernacle of us all) takes into Himself the labours of the suffering members, and makes our sicknesses His, and suffers all our woes and labours by the laws of love. And the Lamb of God not only did this, but was chastised on our behalf, and suffered a penalty He did not owe, but which we owed because of the multitude of our sins; and so He became the cause of the forgiveness of our sins; because He received death for us, and transferred to Himself the scourging, the insults, and the dishonour, which were due to us, and drew down on Himself the apportioned curse, being made a curse for us. And what is that but the price of our souls? And so the oracle says in our person: “By his stripes we were healed,” and “The Lord delivered him for our sins,” with the result that uniting Himself to us and us to Himself, and appropriating our sufferings, He can say, “I said, Lord, have mercy on me, heal my soul, for I have sinned against thee,” and can cry that they who plot against Him, not men only but invisible dæmons as well, when they see the surpassing power of His Holy Name and title, by means of which He filled the world full of Christians a little after, think that they will be able to extinguish it, if they plot His death. Eusebius, The Proof of the Gospel, Vols 1 and II, ed. and trans. W. J. Ferrar (Eugene: Wipf and Stock Publishers, 2001), Book 10, Chapter 1, pp. 195-196.
Na razie tych dwóch na początek, to co Derek sugerował jako kontekst zaznaczyłem italikiem, to co autorzy PfOT wskazywali pogrubiłem, a samemu podkreśliłem odniesienie do "zastępczej" formy ofiary.
Przyznam, że nie widzę jak elementy, który wskazał Derek niwelują zastępczy charakter ofiary Chrystusa tak jasno wyrażony w tych tekstach? Raczej wskazują, jak też można przeczytać w tym linku do Marshill, który podałem, że charakter Ofiary Chrystusa jest
nie tylko zastępczy, jest o wiele szerszy i głębszy, co zresztą Reformatorzy zawsze podkreślali. Niemniej próba twierdzenia, jakoby ów "kontekst" niwelował zastępcze zrozumienie Ofiary u Ojców uważam za nadużycie. Jak sądzisz Kamilu?
Pozdrawiam,
f. (moje dwa grosze)